Orthonomics had an excellent, sensitive post about how difficult it is for religious people who are in debt to deal with being uable to give generously to others. it is in our nature and so painful and frustrasting to have to turn down even simple requests to donate to the school or shul, let alone being able to give to others who are in worse situations than our own.
SephardiLady also asks, "What should the Orthodox community be doing, if anything, to help its members avoid falling into debt in the first place, or deeper into debt?"
1. Rabbis and others in the position to give advice should not encourage (or even pressure) young couples to engage in lifestyle choices that will put them in seriously poor financial straits. My husband's rabbi (at the time we were married) knew that my husband would follow his advice and basically required him to continue in yeshiva. I questioned him on several occasions to find out how he felt we would be able to make it financially. His response was that when he was in yeshiva they managed to do fine. Then he admitted that he didn't know how and I should ask his wife. His wife's answer? Their parents supported them! If you put yourself in a position where you are giving advice that you believe will be followed, take responsibility for it.
2. When offering job suggestions, offer real suggestions. A minimum wage or part-time job with no beenfits will not support a frum couple, let alone a family. Those who are in a position to have connections (especially business owners) should make a real effort to reach out to hire people in the frum community to real positions. Rabbis should be going to their successful congregants to tell them to make these efforts. There are several major businesses here whose owners are members of local shuls and do not make any effort to help those who are looking for jobs.
3. There is a need in the community at large for more access to free loans. Speaking anecdotely from my own and other people's experiences, it is currently a very negative experience to ask for these loans to help get out of debt, and is often denied. (One person who went for help ended up with the agency calling his anti-Orthodox parents who lied baout him and the agency chose to believe them and deny him help.) This is halacha.
4. Something everyone can do - be supportive. Genuinely supportive. If you might be able to help them make connections, do so. (Just telling them a name of "someone who might be hiring" will probably not help them at all unless you are willing to make a follow-up call to the hiring manager or be listed as a reference. Even better if you can forward the resume with a note yourself.) If not, maybe you have other expertise that you can help them with. Or you actually have the means to help them financially with a loan. Or with other things they need - we certainly would not have made it at all without the generous boxes of clothing that continue to show up at our door for the kids. If not, at least be a sensitive person.
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Esther is my wife and I absolutely agree with her. It is especially frustrating davening in a shul filled with successful people who really have no concept of what it's like to be poor or that they need to step up to the plate (pardon the cliche) and help those in need to find jobs or to give them jobs. One business owner here comes to mind. He runs a major company in the area and I spoke to him several times over the phone, had mentioned jobs to him that his website had posted that were a perfect fit for me, if only his HR dept had interviewed me, but I was later told this person pretty much makes a point of NOT hiring frum Jews. Pretty sad, especially considering his father is one of the major donors behind the local Jewish Federation's initiative to create jobs in the area to attract more Jews to help the community grow and prosper. Unfortunately, this "initiative" is as much a farce as a person not hiring Frum Jews.
Love you, Esther:)
Esther, good post. I will link to it since it is my first comprehensive response to a question. :)
I especially think your first point is highly important. Anyone who gives financial advice needs to remember that everyone is unique and that one size fits all advice is not particularly helpful. One needs to know the personality of the receiver, as well as their unique position in life.
SephardiLady - Absolutely. And they also need to take responsibility for the advice they are giving, especially when it is a rabbi or mentor who knows that the person will do whatever they say.
Ulic (AKA Am Kshe Oref) - To add to your comment (since obviously I know the situation), the leadership needs to emphasize how important it is to do this. In some cases, it might even be appropriate for a rabbi to approach specific community members and "encourage" them to take these steps.
hey ulic, when are you going to blog? you've got one post on there from like summertime or something. :) Esther, now that I'm on bedrest and doing pretty much nothing but reading, it's good to see you blogging. :)
Not hiring frum Jews--- those of us frum Jews who ARE business minded and hard workers need to break the stereotype big time. I've been doing my best. When people find out I'm a Mary Kay sales director and a frum Jew, they assume that I sell a few lipsticks here and there and I can't possibly make a full time income let alone have earned a career car and be on my way to the top 1% of the company. WHAT? It's possible to make over $50,000 a year selling lipsticks? come on!! It's a definite "frum" attitude I find.
When I encourage frum Jews to join my team or at least to interview with me, I get three excuses:
I couldn't do that (I don't have the kind of personality that I think your business requires, so I don't want to give it a chance).
I wouldn't do that (what would the COMMUNITY think?) or
I shouldn't do that (my husband won't let me, because it costs a whole $100 to get started. Those of us who know about business start ups know that it costs money ($100? come on!!) to make money.
So, though I certainly don't have a policy of NOT interviewing frum Jews, my biggest successes in my unit are the non Jews or at least the non frum Jews. Sad, because I DO want to reach out to my own community. But from the non Jews I don't get the preconceived "I can't, I shouldn't, I'm not allowed" kind of mentality.
I've also noticed that with frum Jews, we expect things to be handed to us on a silver platter just because we're part of a COMMUNITY. Community orientation is important, but given a frum Jew with a bad attitude and a non Jew with a great attitude, I'd much rather work with the non Jew. All things being EQUAL, of course, I'd love to work with more frum Jews.
My baileywick for helping others make money is simply to help them begin their own businesses--- I'm trying to do that as often and as helpfully as I can, but I go up against the above roadblocks all the time. There's plenty of pay by the hour jobs out there (just look at Craigslist) but, frustratingly, you can't make a full time income from them--- they're all under $20 an hour. For a full time income you really need a CAREER or your own business. But ulic, with your talent for baked goods, you already know that I'm your biggest fan in terms of seeing your baking be a BUSINESS someday!
I'm awfully long winded today. sorry!
Thanks for posting, marykaygal! When I am discussing "the community", I am referring to two aspects: the leadership, and each individual frum person. You are doing exactly what I am talking about - you have a specific way you are able to help people and you do so.
Regarding the reasons you mention, there is definitley validity to #1 (after all, there is a reason people choose different professions, and not everyone is suited for every job.) There is some validity to #3, in that we can't tell other people how to run their marriages (much as we may want to sometimes!!) But I am sorry to hear that people are worried about what people will think. As I have said in a previous post regarding choosing a school for your kids, worrying about what "everyone" thinks is a poor reason to make a choice.
#1 ---- what frustrates me is when people don't even give an opportunity a CHANCE because they'd rather have a less than $20 an hour job handed to them than an interview for a true opportunity to really make a living. What's the harm in having a one hour interview to THEN make a better, more informed decision? I've been to plenty of job interviews for jobs that I didn't THINK would be right for me, but I was wrong. For instance, I took the H&R tax course just for fun, not wanting a job. But at that point, I wanted a less than $20 an hour type job to get me out of the house and recover quickly from illness. I'm glad I gave that interview a chance because I had 4 great seasons with H&R Block before I decided I couldn't afford to work for them anymore even very part time.
#3 ----- husbands who don't ALLOW their wives to spend $100 on something that can change their lives, or even $20 on a pair of shoes they need, for pete's sake. That could be a WHOLE other post! :)
#2--- if I were worried about what anyone in our community thinks, I wouldn't be considering homeschooling! (something my husband may not "allow" me to do..since he's a teacher.... grrr... I should really start blogging again. :)
Your #1 reminds me of a talk about dating I heard from Rav MD Tendler a couple of years ago. He reminisced that when he was a newlywed, he and his wife lived in a small basement apartment in a modest neighborhood. Nowadays, by contrast, many (especially the low 20's set) have the expectation that they will be able to pick up right where there parents left off - with all the luxuries accumulated over decades of saving. As he pointed out, that's often not realistic, yet it can cause undue anxiety and debt. (I'll file it under "what the community can do - manage expectations.")
If an employer in your area makes a point of not hiring frum people, he is not only failing a communal responsibility, he is also violating equal-employment-opportunity laws (at least in the US.) Of course, just because you were told that, doesn't necessarily make it so; especially if the original source of the information was a frustrated job seeker.
The job seeker also should remember that businesses hire workers to get jobs done. The job seeker both needs to acquire skills that enable him or her to contribute to the business, and to market them. I assure you, as someone who spends a fair fraction of his time hiring people, that business people, HR departments, and managers do not ignore resumes from qualified applicants out of sheer malicious glee. However, I do often find myself reading a poorly-drafted resume trying to puzzle out what kind of job an applicant wants, or why he or she thinks he might be good at the job he is asking for. Since I see lots of resumes, those whose resumes don't make their qualifications clear rarely get called for an interview.
And while I am happy to pass along resumes of acquaintances with a recommendation, usually all I can say is that the applicant is a nice and responsible person. That rarely does the applicant as much good as it would if I were in a position to appraise his professional qualifications. You really should look for references from people who know you professionally, not in shul. They count for more.
"Speaking anecdotely from my own and other people's experiences, it is currently a very negative experience to ask for these loans to help get out of debt, and is often denied. (One person who went for help ended up with the agency calling his anti-Orthodox parents who lied baout him and the agency chose to believe them and deny him help.) This is halacha.'
Do I know this person personally?
This is certainly a tough problem we frum Jews face.
Good post, I disagree on one point.
A good job with all the benefits is ideal.
Yet a job that is far from ideal is still better than no job at all.
The money aside a man who has no job feels useless and risks falling into a mild depression which could hamper his chances of looking further into job possibilities that are interesting.
themarykaygal-Your post hit home.
I tried to help friends get jobs and they weren't interested for the most ridiculous reasons.
I want to help but it can be frustrating.
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